When I was 15/16 I was in an accident that left me with chronic pain and internal damage that meant pregnancy was highly unlikely for me. I’ve never wanted children. The reality of me probably being unable to have children never bothered me. It’s bothered everyone else though. People have cried more over my inability to have children than I have. No matter what I say no one will believe that I’m happy in my body regardless of its ability to produce children. They mourn my body like it belongs to them. As though my ability to have children has any affect on their life.
A few months ago I missed two periods in a row and took a pregnancy test that turned out to be a false positive. I went to Planned Parenthood to get a professional opinion and with the full intention of getting an abortion if it turned out that I was pregnant against all odds. There was no fear beyond the usual nervousness you experience at the prospect of a medical procedure. There was no emotional turmoil over my decision. I know what I want and it isn’t kids. The choice was an easy one for me.
When I finally opened up about my pregnancy scare to a few friends, all of them “good” feminist women, they were almost offended over how easy the decision was for me. “If you had been pregnant that may have been your only shot at a biological child. How could you just give that up without more thought?” One asked me. “So many women in your position would kill to be able to get pregnant and you were going to just throw it away?” Another one said to me.
I am not an incubator for other women’s hopes and dreams. If I ever do get pregnant I will not stay that way just because other people in my position would be grateful to have a chance at experiencing pregnancy/birth. I’m not interested in that. I never will be. I don’t want children.
If your idea of “my body my choice” only extends to certain people it’s bullshit. If you think certain women should be grateful for unwanted pregnancies just because any pregnancy for them was unlikely you’re disrespecting their choice. Stop treating women with fertility/reproductive health issues like we’re broken or should feel sad over our health when we tell you we don’t. Stop thinking we owe you “miracle babies” even when we don’t want children.
Fetuses do not have rights. They’re not sentient, they’re not conscious, they’re not self aware. Even if they did have rights, nothing would give them the right to use another person’s body without that person’s permission. Actual born human beings don’t even have that right.
That’s because of this great thing called “bodily autonomy.” Bodily autonomy is basically the right to your own body, to decide who/what uses it, for what, and for how long. It’s why you can’t be forced to donate blood or organs, etc., even if you’re dead.
Fetuses do not have this.
Pregnant people do.
So if a pregnant person does not want a fetus using their body, guess what? The fetus can’t use their body.
Even if the fetus had all these rights as well (they don’t) it wouldn’t matter. Because it’s the fetus using the pregnant person and the pregnant person has the right to deny the fetus that use. It’s the pregnant person’s bodily autonomy that matters.
Don’t give a pregnant person less rights than a corpse.
They made their choice when they chose to become pregnant. The child deserves to live.
I don’t think most people seeking elective abortion chose to become pregnant.
In fact, I’m not sure anyone can actively choose to become pregnant.
Sex = pregnancy. Don’t have sex and you won’t get pregnant.
You can get pregnant even if you don’t have sex, you can have sex and not get pregnant. You can get pregnant without deciding to have sex. Deciding to have sex does not mean you decided to get pregnant.
Yes, the one adult gave permission to the other adult to have sex with them.
That would also constitute permission from the mother to the child. assuming for just a moment that OP isn’t a complete idiot with her “body autonomy” argument
Consent to one thing is not consent to another, and consent is not transferable from person to person. Consent must also be continuous and given freely. Even if you believe consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, the pregnant person could still revoke their consent, even if they had sex wanting to get pregnant. Unless you think consent cannot be revoked?
I think that grown adults know what causes children and that just because it’s inconvenient doesn’t mean that they get to change their mind . If you want to play, be prepared to pay
First, not only adults get pregnant. Plus, sexual education is inconsistent and can be lacking depending on the place. There are people that don’t even know condoms (or any other method of birth control) are not 100% effective, let alone that having protected sex could result in having a child. I believe there should be better access to affordable (free) and reliable methods of birth control, as well as better and more comprehensive sex ed courses that cover, among other things, all choices available regarding sexual intercourse and reproduction.
Second, reducing a person’s reason for getting an abortion down to an “inconvenience” is trivializing. It doesn’t matter if the person doesn’t want to be “inconvenienced,” they shouldn’t have to be “inconvenienced.”
Third, they do get to change their mind. At whatever time, for whatever reason. The pregnant person must consent to the fetus using their body for the entire pregnancy, otherwise their right to bodily autonomy would be violated.
Finally, this whole “pay” for “playing” thing shows you regard pregnancy and childbirth as punishment for having consensual sex.
No, most of the people who chose abortions see it as a punishment, that’s why they feel like they have a right to kill a baby. I’m not saying there aren’t reasons for it, I am saying that it is far too casual. I’m not saying a mothers life is less important than a baby’s, I’m not saying incest shouldn’t be a reason along with rape. I am saying that most grown adults know what they are doing, the baby didn’t make a choice.
Do you think a person shouldn’t be able to get an abortion if they had consensual sex, and that they should be able to in the case of rape or incest?
I don’t believe in abortion at all, but I understand that some instances are traumatic and abortion should be an option. But no, I do not believe that if you forgot your condom, or it failed snd now your life is inconvenienced that you should be allowed an abortion.
Most of the time we are talking about consenting adults who choose abortion in order to stay out of trouble, or not change their life, and at that point I believe the child has the greater claim
So you do think a person should be able to get an abortion if they were raped?
I do believe that if the woman can’t bring herself to carry the child of her rapist, it should be an option.
considering that rape and incest make up less than 4% of all abortions, yeah I will take a 96% reduction in abortions
Why do you think a person has the right to get an abortion if they were raped?
I don’t think it’s a right for someone who’s been raped to have an abortion I believe it’s a medical necessity.
Ok, then why is it a medical necessity? Why should the person be able to get an abortion?
Because rape is a terrible and traumatic event and sometimes the idea of carrying the child of your rapist is more than even a strong woman can handle. Which is completely different situation than oh my God look I’m pregnant now I have to put off college for a year or so what are my parents going to think Or sure this guy is nice to have had a date but I don’t think I want to have a baby with him so.
Also in the case of rape or incest it’s an event that was forced on the mother, she had no say in it, she didn’t decide for that to happen. Where is the other instances she knew what she was doing she went into it with her eyes open and the idea that hey I’m going to do this and one of the consequences is I could get pregnant.
So a person should be able to get an abortion because it would be traumatizing/difficult for them to be forced to stay pregnant with their rapist’s child?
That doesn’t sound like a medical necessity, that sounds like they have the right to get an abortion because it would be wrong to traumatized them.
No, it sounds like they were raped, against their will, and most times violently so no it’s not traumatic because they have to have a baby. It’s dramatic because they would constantly be reminded of that violent event in their life. That being said I would still encourage even the victims of rape and incest to carry the child to term if she could and give it up for adoption.
(That’s still not an abortion performed out of medical necessity, btw.)
So you would consider it traumatic for a person to be forced to have sex but not traumatic for them to be forced to stay pregnant? Why?
A person should be able to get an abortion because they were raped, why? What’s your entire argument? What gives them the right to abort the fetus? Would their rights be violated if they were forced to carry their rapist’s baby?
Because in most instances them becoming pregnant was their choice. they went into it willingly. They knew the risks of the actions they were taking. Forgive me if your life is inconvenienced at that point because you did something and it didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to.
That’s not an answer to any question I asked. We’re talking about abortions in the case of rape, you’re talking about consensual sex.
You are trying to draw a correlation between the trauma of a rape and the trauma of having a child I’m just pointing out that these two instances came about because of completely different circumstances
It’s almost like they would both be traumatic. Notice how you said “trauma of rape” and “trauma of having a child.” They would both be traumatic, as both would be forced on the person. They didn’t come about because of completely different circumstances, one could occur after the other (you could be forced to have sex and forced to stay pregnant) or they could not (you could have consensual sex and be forced to stay pregnant).
Either way, you have yet to present an argument as to why abortions in the case of rape are acceptable. Do you have one?
You keep throwing around the word ‘inconvenience’. Have you ever been pregnant? Have you ever gone through that? It’s far more than an ‘inconvenience’. The drive thru taking too long and putting me potentially late for work is an ‘inconvenience’. A child making me physically unable to keep down any meal of the day, sucking up my nutrients and making me go through every emotion in the span of three hours and then putting me out of work for two or more months at the rate of 50% of my paycheck IF I’M LUCKY ENOUGH FOR THAT is a HELL of a lot more than an ‘inconvenience’. That would push me and the child I ALREADY HAVE back into poverty and we’d likely lose our house. But yeah, pregnancy is totally an ‘inconvenience?’ Fuck off.
I only used the “trauma of rape line because that is what you were implying. what you want to overlook is that in the case of rape and incest the action or actions were forced on that person. in the case of an accidental pregnancy, it wasn’t. they made choices, they decided to do what they did and a baby was the result. I don’t believe that a baby should pay for your willing actions.
If you don’t want a baby, get protected, with the knowledge that it ISN’T 100% effective, or don’t have sex. it really is that simple. choices were made, now it’s time to own up to it and deal with the results. That baby wasn’t involved in your choices, but you were. and that baby shouldn’t pay because you made poor choices.
@exodusvonengel
I keep using the word inconvenience because that is how an unwanted pregnancy is viewed by a lot of people. wow, babies have to be nourished…who knew? oh wait, you did. So why in the hell did you do something stupid like getting pregnant again if you didn’t want another baby.
wait, babies are expensive? WHAT?!?! shocker, maybe you shouldn’t do what causes babies without a plan to take care of them.
so what you are telling me is that you are too lazy to be responsible and it’s just easier to kill a baby. Gotcha.
I would tell you to Fuck off, but you would probably end up with a baby and want to kill it.
Since you’ve avoided the question yet again, do you just not have an argument for why abortion is acceptable in the case of rape?
personally, I’m not 100% convinced that it should be, but I am pragmatic enough to realize that other people see it that way, so I am willing to take a long view and work for anything that reduces the total number of abortions.
Ok, so you believe it should be accessible because other people believe it should?
Lazy. Yeah, I’m lazy. I’m lazy for having a baby at 16 because I decided that abortion wasn’t right for me, and I’m lazy for having fought and clawed my way to a comfortable, lower middle class way of life now that he’s almost ten. I’m totally lazy for not wanting the possibility of having another baby at this point to put us in a homeless shelter because I, as a woman, dared to enjoy having sex a few times a year, while on birth control. I’m lazy for working 48 hour weeks to keep a roof over my goddamn head and not wanting another child to force me out of that.
My already born, living, breathing, video game playing 9 year old is more important to me to keep up than another baby who is none of those things. If I found out I was pregnant tomorrow, that my birth control failed, I don’t know what I would do, but abortion would be very high on that list. Because I’m too lazy to risk putting my son into poverty. Because I’m too lazy to have to try and continue working that 48 hours a week when I could barely make it through nine months of high school when I was pregnant before.
It’s not really children, per se. Granted, I’m not fond of them being around, I don’t want one in my house or very often in my immediate presence, and I especially don’t like it if I have to watch one that can’t even talk coherently let alone understand what I’m saying, but all this is because I have no patience and no strong maternal instincts to speak of.
If I’m out in public somewhere and a child looks at me, I will smile at it. If I see a video or gif of a child doing something adorable, I might coo and share it. I don’t actively go out of my way to upset children or even discuss them with most people.
But I hate with all my being the culture that surrounds the concept of children.
There’s an overwhelming societal expectation of a beuterused person that they must not only have children (usually multiple), but that they must desperately want children, often to the exclusion of all else. It’s tied very much into the notion that everyone is supposed to get married and promptly produce offspring and put themselves neatly into heteronormative traditional gender roles so as to be a good adult and a “productive member of society.” Indeed, the mere presence of breasts and a presumed uterus is indicative that a person’s worth is whether or not they reproduce.
And it’s this idea that infests every conversation about health or future or family. It’s this concept that makes those of us who do not want children (especially biologically) have to constantly brace ourselves for potential arguments when we talk about any of these things.
It’s the reason I had to switch doctors when my first one kept insisting that “the ideal” was for me to “remain a virgin until marriage and then marry a virgin before having children.” It’s the reason people with vaginas require checkups for “reproductive health” to make sure everything is “functioning correctly for reproduction” instead of just to make sure things don’t hurt/aren’t infected/need attention. It’s the reason we see language used like “baby-making” for het sex with no stated reproductive intent, why the term “biological clock” is still exclusively used in regards to reproduction, and why there is an over-emphasis on pregnancy and reproduction language in sex (“baby goo,” “baby batter,” “gonna make a baby in you,” etc.). It’s why there’s still so much debate over who gets a say in pregnancy, why pregnancy is still terrifyingly often referred to as a punishment or as a means to control the beuterused. It’s the reason why family, friends, and even strangers feel completely within their rights to ask you about your reproductive plans, to make you justify all of your life choices to them at a moment’s notice, to question your thoughts and beliefs as if they know you better than you do yourself.
It’s the reason why the questions are so intensive when someone asks for lasting birth control. It’s the reasons why we are told over and over the rate of regret, the success stories of people who changed their minds, the horror stories of those who didn’t. It’s the reason why, when you state that you have a “phobia of pregnancy” in the hope that it will make people stop asking you without making you explain yourself or justify your feelings for the umpteenth time, the only advice you get is, “Well, that needs to be fixed before anything else.”
It’s the reason why “because I don’t want children” isn’t enough. It’s the reason why adoption is never seen as an option because “you’ll want some of your own someday.” It’s the reason why people put such value on “extending the family line” and “continuing the family name.”
It’s the reason I have to say I hate children for people to stop questioning me. It’s the reason I have to monitor my conversations with certain people because they’ll say, “Ah, see, you DO like kids!!” It’s the reason parts of my dysphoria kick in hard when I see the sort of things mentioned above. Because, unless something happens to remove or damage a uterus, it is not only expected, but demanded of you to know why you’re refusing “the most precious gift on Earth,” “your womanly duty,” “the greatest love you’ll ever know,” and so forth.
It’s the reason why “I hate children” is rolled off my tongue more and more until finally people just stop talking.
But I don’t hate children.
I hate the culture of children.
I hate the misogyny that surrounds pregnancy.
Most of all, I hate the people who perpetuate this culture, who deny someone else the right to say they don’t want to be part of it, who threaten to make them part of it.
But, you know, it’s so much easier to just say I hate children.
There is a sentence in this that I felt a burning need to address. It’s “Because, unless something happens to remove or damage a uterus, it is not only expected, but demanded of you to know why you’re refusing “the most precious gift on Earth,” “your womanly duty,” “the greatest love you’ll ever know,” and so forth.” Having a damaged uterus does not make you immune.
I’m not going to go into detail, but certain things happened to me as a child and as a result, my entire uterus is a ball of scar tissue. It only works well enough to make me an invalid for a week every month or so. It will never be a productive uterus, and I have absolutely zero problem with this. It means I no longer need to justify my lack of offspring to people like my mother. However, when it was discovered in my late 20s that I was unable to have kids, I requested a hysterectomy because menstruating is such a painful experience for me. I was actually happy about it, it was the magic excuse that would get everyone off my back about biological clocks and crap. I shit you not, the following is the actual conversation I had with the surgeon.
“So, since none of it works or will ever work, can you take it all out? It would be nice to not have to worry about any of this again.” “Uhh.. No.” “Why not?” “You’re under 30 and don’t have children.” “What does that have to do with anything?” “You might want to have children in the future.” “But even if I did, you just told me I can’t. You JUST said that I can’t even have eggs harvested for a surrogate. Is changing my mind going to magically make it all work?” “No.” “So can you take it all out?” “No. You might want children one day.”
It continued in this fashion for a good 20 minutes before she got angry at me for not wanting to become a mother and left my hospital room.
My uterus is such a mess that it has hospitalized me more than once, it doesn’t work properly at all, and yet I’m not allowed to have it removed because… honestly I’m not even sure how to finish that sentence.
Misogyny doesn’t even begin to describe it. I’ve even had medical professionals who know this story tell me that popping out a sprog would cure my depression. It’s outright idiocy. At this point, for me, whether I want children or not is irrelevant. I physically cannot reproduce, and yet the Culture of Children you talk about is so bad that it forces me to suffer through needless pain that could be easily prevented with a simple, common surgical procedure. Any time I ask for that surgery, I’m met with nonsensical cries of “BUT BABIES”.
Thank you for being vocal about this kind of thing.
And thank you so much for sharing!
This kind of thing fills me with rage, because it just illustrates how our knowledge of ourselves and our own bodies, even when completely backed up by doctors, is still ignored and outright rejected because of this nebulous idea that “Well, you’ll want children one day.” Even when going up against logic and plain fact, the “woman = children” (for the value of women that most medical providers only accept) correlation is so strong they don’t even think of going against it and will actively fight you if you reject it.
I think ‘the culture of children’ is a kinda bad way to put this because it sounds like it pins blame on the children that people are pressured to have and often cannot care for them correctly. I know what this post means and I agree with nearly all of it, but that phrasing just rubs me the wrong way since it is often the children that suffer from neglect or outright abuse due to their parents not being suited for parenthood but doing it anyways because they feel pressured by society to do so.
I’d say it’s more of a culture of heteronormativity, capitalism and “”“traditional family values”“”, since it’s capitalism and the concept of the nuclear family that drives people to have kids because then they spend more $$$.
Hell, the traditional nuclear family was pushed heavily by the gov’t after WWII in order to try and push a more consumerist market and drive more production in the U.S. Having a housewife whose only purpose is to pop out babies and vacuum really helps drive baby toy and household appliance sales.
because of this push that commercialized families and defined what was ‘normal’, it also defined what was abnormal - namely, anyone that didn’t fit into the cookie cutter husband, wife, 2.5 kids and a picket fence model. Many of the sentiments created in this era still linger today in societal expectations of people having kids.
(^source: I took several sociology classes on family structures)
